For each subject, different studies, different exercises, different explanations. On the other hand, the school sets two kinds of study and practice: one the classical sequences and the other is the free form — in which Ogawa Sensei stood out the most. In the free form, logically, every practicioner and teacher make efforts to polish and improve himself, and that one changes constantly, for it pursuits the maximum reality within limits - but never adulderate the Koryuu Seiteigata forms.
In the videos and documentaries that are available in the site — all the videos made in the institution available to the public may be found there - there are many ones showing Seiteigata forms, other ones showing free forms. Someones are performed by Shidoushi, others by older students and yet, others by very begginers.
Obviously, the purpose of each one if different. We truly admire researchers who share their opinions in a serious way with other people and believe that this can lead to great conclusions and studies. Nevertheless, it is not usual the institution reply to any kind of forums, regardless of its aims, purposes or contents. Thus, we believe still many questions will be raised in a forum with so many experts and researchers, but we guard the right to remain silent.
As said, the institution is open to whoever wants to know or study the style in a serious and ethical way, according to our purposes. We do believe that even with the experience that great experts may have, having its own experiences about something, specially a style or school is the first minimum step to be able to evaluate it.
Shidoushi lives in Barcelona and is organizing the legal stuff to start his classes. Courses and seminars may be found from times to times.
Finotti, Thank you for replying. As you noted: " No need for me, at least, for further questions. You can't prove it, one way or the other. Wayne Muromoto But the real kicker comes on page 6: I know them. My first knowledge about Shidoshi Jordan Augusto was in 94 in a brazilian martial arts magazine in which he was presented as a master of Daito ryu. My father contacted the magazine so we could reach this, as far as we believed, only master of Daito ryu residing in Brazil.
After four months we were able to contact his students who then explained that they actually trained an ancient japanese religion called "Bugei Art" that involved more than 18 physical disciplines and 36 spiritual ones. Just to put into context, back in 94 there was no internet and very little trustworth bibliograph was avaiable in brazilian bookstores. I had some books in english that had such pearls of wisdom like "Jujutsu then became judo" or "samurai praticed karate" It was and i decided to do a Workshop on Kenjutsu on my own talking about frogs on wells, in my ignorance i thought that my video based aikiken was kenjutsu He participated on the seminar and demonstrated "Daito ryu Aikijujutsu" and "Kaze no ryu Kenjutsu" the no meaning, acording to him, the possessive particle, thus rendering the name "Tradition of the wind".
I had a very extremely completely lame Aikido so he looked amazing. Althought i was very well treated and enjoyed tremendously the practice i deeply disliked the religious aspect animism with guiding spirits who had very tendencious advices for me towards martial arts and personal life His weapons are definetly Aikido type. He studies alot of videos thus he is able to increase his repertoire with kata he adds and them blends into his "tradition". As i mentioned, at first he taught three diferent Koryu in his "Bugei Art" as it was called back then : Daito ryu, Shindo Muso ryu and Kaze no ryu.
He also explained how the term Bugei refered specifically to his school if it is called Bugei, it is related to him and his school As in 98 me and my father finally got internet and found KoryuBooks, Mugendo Budogu and Tozando, we were able to buy fantastic books and videos When i mentioned this to him he simplely said that what he taught in the workshop was "Kaze no ryu Jojutsu" not quite what he said on the video my father made of that seminar After extra six months he was explaining that actually it was Kaze no ryu Bugei, which included Aikijujutsu, Kumiuchi, Jojutsu, Kenjutsu, Sojutsu, Naginata jutsu, tanto jutsu, hojo jutsu, okinawan weapons yes!
Yes, Ainu. Also, there was an unhealth atmosphere of formality From 97 to 99 Jordan was able to gain a large following and lots of money In the bomb fell Present status. As i said before, Jordan is very skilled and has an amazing charisma.
And i inadvertly have helped him in doing so with a hot debate i had on the Orkut-based community "Kenjutsu - Kendo" were i listed all the incongruences of his "Koryu", among which was the name. Now he uses the name Ogawa ryu instead of Kazeno ryu which he still uses, but with the reading "direction of the wind" instead of "Wind school" and has "fixed" all the most obvious absurds on his claim of being a legitm koryu except the Ainu nonsense, but he will most likely do it, sooner or later.
All in all it is very much like Saigo ha Daito ryu. And not something i would recomend. Basically, there are still technical give aways as to the lack of or extremely mixed "provenance". Not to mention the obvious problems with veracity over the years, and the attempts to rectify the errors without just coming clean.
But in terms of just physical skill, he and his students look skilled on video. Hard to tell more without feeling it. My opinion I wouldn't go out of my way to find out how technically skilled they are if they can't tell the truth. But when you start lying about things, then I really can't trust you. So no Best, Ron. I too have seen these impressive clips I thought I read they were an off shoot of Daito Ryu I dont' understand all this Martial Hubbub about lineage and who's style is more real than another's What is it with these Brazilians?
It's not about Real. It's about Facts. If someone says, "We will teach you practical jujutsu! If someone says, "We will teach you an ancient Ainu form of martial arts! It's in the facts that back up that claim. If there are none, then it's disingenuous at best, and fraud at worst.
If the style is personally worth being lied to, then great. Myself, no matter how good I may find the art, I could never stay with an instructor who lied to me to that degree. Greetings All, Robert Wolfe said it best, several years ago on e-budo : Regardless of the physical efficacy of individual techniques within a particular system, Dave Lowry has made the point that fundamental dishonesty or deliberate obfuscation at the core of a system corrupts the practice in subtle but significant ways and ultimately affects and compromises the practitioners themselves by requiring energy and spirit that should be available to training be diverted to justifying the practice, to themselves or others.
An internal schism is created when some seed of doubt in one's instructor is planted, exacerbated by the fact the physical and psychic danger inherent in practice of classical or classical-styled martial arts in essence requires absolute trust and faith in the instructor. Eventually such disharmony can reach something of a critical mass, resulting in even as senior a practitioner as Mr. R deciding honor and integrity demand a different course. In fact, I've heard quite a bit more off-forum about this group.
Enough to convince me that regardless of how physically skilled they are, I would never set foot in their dojo. True budo should improve the whole person, and if someone who has supposedly 'mastered' an art still finds it in themselves to lie about what they do and hold unhealthy sway in their students lives, they, in my view, have failed as budoka.
And anyone who can't see the reasoning behind what we are saying here, gets what they deserve. And they are welcome to it. I don't really care about this group at all. I think Robert Wolfe has a good handle on it, for having been a victim of it himself. And just because the students drank the kool-aid doesn't mean they are all culpable either. If you must I mean if you love the ancient Japanese arts These guys and gals would do better to make -themselves- truly capable and carry on from there.
Though it would mean dumping the hakama and gi and just train as a MMA group. Though if they did these supposed "deadly techniques would have to stand on their own merits and their own two feet.
Something which most men run from. We then must make cultural allowances for Japanese tatamae and honne where lying is I have seen it first hand. Though I was raised properly where there is no excuse for lying and no credible reason for doing so-people Why its almost an acceptable form of a social contract now.
Just like in Japan. Dan, this is a really interesting point which I've also seen, first hand. Of course, part of the problem is this notion that making something more "Japanese" is making it better or even, in some cases, more appropriate. On the other hand, if you're choosing to train with someone, on some level you're accepting their version of reality, as it applies to combatives.
Eventually, I think what happens is that some want to just be led blindly, while others constantly evaluate, try to improve and ultimately raise everyone's game some have to strike out on their own to do this, while some can do it within their collective. Maybe it boils down to some people ultimately training to achieve something versus some people training to belong somewhere. Then, of course, there's different levels of honesty with oneself and others even between and within those paradigms.
No easy answers, but I think starting with honest inquiry ain't a bad thing on a number of levels. As for Dave's excellent argument of fundemental dishonesty. How does it apply to the present discussion of an apparently phony ryu? Are tatemai and honne really about lying? Omote is what happens before the face; ura is what happens behind one's back. Tatemae is formal, public, official; honne is informal, private, unofficial.
I think that the core of these distinctions is found in all cultures, but in Japan the refinement of these distinctions is quite exquisite: it is an art form. I agree with Budd: we should start with honest inquiry. Josh, I understand your point, but it seems to me that people are often arguing the 'facts' that date back sometimes hundreds of years and these 'facts' are often incomplete History is often revised to suit perspectives. For example I'm aware too that there are huge numbers of 'Frauds' out there and you can usually tell in a short period of time training with them.
Just because someone has their 'facts' in order doesn't make them good teachers. Much in the way that having a marriage license makes you a good spouse.
I just think that no one, who has commented on them, in this thread, has either trained with them or personally seen the level of teaching at their dojo. They are just discrediting or invalidating there skill based on lineage or the lack of proof there of or on internet rumors.
Maybe I'm in the minority here. You are. Many of us participated in the e-budo thread that was linked and quoted above. They have changed their claims over the years, I do know someone who has trained with them and their students. Thanks in advance. Jim Dan, this is a really interesting point which I've also seen, first hand. I guess it al depends how and where you were raised. People these days have situational ethics, Corporate spin, the Japanese cultural support for half truth, even their own versions of Amish group-shunning etc.
All of which can be accomplished without lying. I revisited this thread after having a series of discussions with certain folks in a certain art. It was their general opinion that it is easier to give a "No comment" than to offer a lie.
Further it is far less harmful to all involved. One person, who trains with a certain shihan and has an affiliated Dojo made a very clear statement.
It's a lie. He went on to say. I don't want to be associated with a person, much less an entire group who would do such a thing. No if's As I said I don't really care about these sam-you-eye imposters here. Are they any less comical than many people in the martial arts world? Many of whom are there because they "have issues" in the first place.
And the martial art vertical structure gives them ample support for an obviously flawed character. It easily explains the mendacity, and also the hiding and subsequent protectionism of low level skills behind a structure that you see so often in these arts. It's why I see little difference between these fabricated-out-of-whole-cloth play actors in skirts, and many so-called Budo teachers who have nothing much to show that your average high school wrestler couldn't take apart.
In the end they are both constructs. Nothing more than an illusion. In a world of grey it is sometimes refreshing to see black and white. Hi Dan, Agreed on some things being black and white - on a case by case basis ; who says budo isn't full of contradictions? Hi big guy Hmmm I reject it. If we sat and yakked a bit I could outline a few personal experiences. Including some rather hilarious, and easy to unravel lies from Budo teachers. Were one to really get down to it lying reveals personality flaws.
Why lie? Ego Protectionism vanity jealousy Greed And greed breeds dishonesty in many forms. There is no grey area, only the social contract that offers cultural support for individual or group lying. The reason I posted it here is because you only really see the term "Koppojutsu" used in reference to ninja-related martial arts. I thought perhaps someone might know if they had any relation to the Takamatsu-den through one of the "Kans". Senban , Nov 13, Well, at the end of that video clip was a website:- www.
Also, a lot of it is in a language I don't understand - Portuguese maybe? Last edited: Nov 13, Yes, it's Portuguese.
Interesting to see them using a term which originally was coined by Hatsumi sensei specifically for use in the Bujinkan: "Shidoshi". Dale Seago , Nov 13, Enson , Nov 14, From what I could work out they seem to claim a line that stretches back to the Ainu in Hokkaido And a people they seem convinced were called the "shizen" I dunno.. But I'm not rushing to the Bugei Daijiten to check them out It looks like fun.
Oh dear Noticed that too from their website. I always thought the Bugei was Genbukan?
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